jim1274 Posted October 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 Not that I am aware of, but have not yet found a schematic diagram. I only took a quick look at the wiring harness diagrams and have not yet deciphered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim1274 Posted October 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 These connector pinouts should get you started.http://s538.photobucket.com/albums/ff342/raschmidt/Automotive/2011%20SHO/Audio/ -Rod I looked through these connector pinouts a second time, and for the life of me, can't decipher what goes with my non-Sony system. Last thing I want to do is cut into the wrong wires, so guess I am going to have to buy the "2012 Ford Taurus Wiring Diagram Manual" unless someone has one to look up my system wiring schematic. I looked on every forum I could think of, google images, etc. and came up empty. No clue where else I can find this system schematic and wiring info other than the Ford manual above. I'm going to install a JBL MS-8 DSP unit and need to have a firm handle on the system wiring schematic before I start pulling the head unit and cutting into wires. This is starting to come together--will update the install plan soon when I finalize the spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim1274 Posted October 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2012 I ordered a "2012 Ford Taurus Wiring Manual"--that should hopefully let me get my arms around the audio system wiring config for my system. Here is where I am at in a nutshell on the system spec: Some type of DSP is going to be deployed--the JBL MS-8 is the current choice but am going to look at the other similar products to make sure. The MS-8 has 8 channels of internal amplification which I would initially try for all but the sub amplification. It has been suggested that I try leaving the OEM speakers intact when using a DSP--the auto tune and better amplification with the MS-8 may make do the trick. I am skeptical that the OEM speakers will be good enough even with a DSP EQ and tune, so suspect the front doors and center top dash will get upgraded too. LOTS of choices out there--probably too early to even mention candidates but would probably use Hybrid Audio Technology Imagines for the front doors if had to just pick one without further research. There is a whole world beyond the likes of the mainstream stuff like Pioneer and such. The center speaker upgrade is going to be the trickiest one--those 3.5's don't have many choices beyond mainstream 3.5" coax units for a direct drop-in replacement size. I am still undecided on the sub choice. While the JL Audio Stealthbox has a lot to recommend itself, many have told me this product is grossly overpriced--am looking at the option of doing something similar with a home brew enclosure in the wheel well and incorporate the amp in the well too for stealth. I'm strongly leaning away from even considering a sub box in the open area of the trunk--really prefer a stealth solution. The other option is woofers in the rear deck and use the trunk as the enclosure--still exploring that. The only items scored so far is 40 sq ft of sound dampening (AlphaDamp) and a trim removal tool kit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjhpadi Posted October 21, 2012 Report Share Posted October 21, 2012 I hope that as your project progresses that you will take a post photos of your work. both before and after photos, as this should be a super sounding system that you are building. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildosvt Posted October 21, 2012 Report Share Posted October 21, 2012 JL Audio is overpriced. I am glad that you have not given up on your build. Do not overlook the replacement of the 6x9 in favor of a shallow mount 8" in the rear deck. I would wager you could go for a normal depth 8" provided the motor isnt huge. As for the center speaker, Take time to see if you could mount a 4"+ in there? I used to work where the IP is built for the Taurus. But I cant recall what it looks like under the center grille. Mount it to the substrate instead of the grille if that is how it is mounted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim1274 Posted October 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 JL Audio is overpriced. I am glad that you have not given up on your build. Do not overlook the replacement of the 6x9 in favor of a shallow mount 8" in the rear deck. I would wager you could go for a normal depth 8" provided the motor isnt huge. As for the center speaker, Take time to see if you could mount a 4"+ in there? I used to work where the IP is built for the Taurus. But I cant recall what it looks like under the center grille. Mount it to the substrate instead of the grille if that is how it is mounted. I am not giving up, just not installing anything until comfortable that I am making the best choices. Have way too much time in researching this to quit now....plus I can hardly listen to the OEM rig.... The sub choice has turned out to be the toughest part of the spec. You mention replacement of the rear deck 6 by 9's--my non-Sony does not have them. That is creating part of the challenge as I'm working with a solid rear deck with effectively 3 layers blocking sound on the deck to trunk. (the top deck is solid, there is layer of insulation underneath, plus the trunk liner except for small hole in bottom of bump outs where woofer motors would have been) I am thinking that with any type of trunk mounted sub like the JL Audio or sub box, a "port" opening in the rear deck is going to be needed for best performance. (I looked at peenyr's Stealthbox thread--seems the tight sealed trunk was not an issue though for him--maybe is not sealed as well as it seems?) If I am going to need to pull the rear deck and create openings with some type of grill, might as well take a hard look at something like the 8" rear deck mount subs. I did find a brief thread over on taurus.net that replaced an IB set-up that had dual 8's in the shelf--he converted to a big sealed hanging box hanging from the rear deck--need to find out what was lacking in performance that prompted him to add the box. That said, lotusdriver documented his IB dual 8" over at shoforum and seemed pleased with the results. I have some more homework to do.... As for the front center, I am definitely going to look at 4" options--lots of better quality choices in that size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goblues38 Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 Having been in the car audio biz....graned it was between 87-94.....i can tell you, the bass will find its way into the cabin. you dont need to open any ports into the car from the trunk. in fact, if you attempt to port directly into the car, you run the risk of hearing "port noise". basically, te port opening will act like a flute as air is drawn in and out. You will hear a constant flutter of air. not very nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim1274 Posted October 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 Having been in the car audio biz....graned it was between 87-94.....i can tell you, the bass will find its way into the cabin. you dont need to open any ports into the car from the trunk. in fact, if you attempt to port directly into the car, you run the risk of hearing "port noise". basically, te port opening will act like a flute as air is drawn in and out. You will hear a constant flutter of air. not very nice. Well, that is really good to know if I go with a trunk mounted sub over a rear shelf install. I would not want to have to drop the rear seats down to get good bass in the cabin! I'm down to a JL Stealthbox or installing a couple 8" subs in my rear deck opening like lotusdriver documented over at shoforum. Was mulling over option of building a custom sub for the wheel well like the JL Stealthbox, but that would be a very tricky odd shape enclosure and just not worth it--too much design and labor time involved to be worth it to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j1mmyr1chter Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 Another idea would be to build a sealed enclosure and fire the drivers directly towards the back seat. Yes yes, you dont wanna fire subs hard into a wall of seat cushion, but if you install and leave an air gap between the subs and the back seat cushions that is equal to half the diameter of the sub driver it will operate fine (12" subs, leave at least 6" between the sub woofer and the back seat cushion). However, the beauty of this is, our seats fold down. If you are really ready to rock out, just pull the seats down and pump it up. I have installed many sub systems this way and it works great. Previous poster is correct, bass is omni-directional and will thump quite well with no air passage into the cabin, however, I know from experience you will get more sound pressure level with an airway into the cabin (e.g. the seats folder down, or a port thought the rear deck). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim1274 Posted October 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 That is a good suggestion, but am really trying to keep the trunk open and unencumbered--think it is down to a JL stealth box or dual 8's IB in the rear deck. I'm thinking the only advantage to the dual 8's is cost--that JL 13.5 in a proper box HAS to be better than the dual 8's especially given a complete trunk seal for true IB is gonna be neAr impossible. I'm thinking even a couple primo 8" sub drivers is gonna be half the cost of the JL though, but offset by the added labor of an IB install. At least I have narrowed the sub part to two.. I am pretty close to inking in the JBL MS-8 as my DSP integration unit, but am looking at a handful of other DSP units to make sure. Have a Ford wiring manual on order--once that arrives and I figure out the OEM integration this should come together pretty quickly. That Sony upgrade option sure looks like a deal after all this...lot of cost and hassle to get a good stereo via the aftermarket path...would have just gotten the Sony on a do-over.. Sure hope this thing sings when finished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goblues38 Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 the sony system sounds awesome, right up to the point when you want to "rock out"..... then it falls flat on its face. Thank god I am old and have moved on from my $6,000+ (at cost mind you) competition car stereo systems. I only miss it every once in a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim1274 Posted October 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 the sony system sounds awesome, right up to the point when you want to "rock out"..... then it falls flat on its face. Thank god I am old and have moved on from my $6,000+ (at cost mind you) competition car stereo systems. I only miss it every once in a while. My "premium" system does not sound good at any volume level. Without any real bass to speak of, it really is DOA to my mind. A car of this cost and trim level should have a better base system to my mind--something like the Sony should be the entry point and have upgrade options from there. Guess I should be glad mine will be "only" in the low $2000's (HOPEFULLY) compared to your $6K system. I pray it is in the same league as the sweet HK system in the wife's SRT8 Challenger--that was what ruined me and made the SHO system virtually unlistenable and made this upgrade necessary. When I saw the price on the SRT8 sticker for the HK audio upgrade, it seemed kinda pricey. Now that I am digging into upgrading this system, it seems like a absolute steal. Lesson learned. I am old too but still like to have good sound...and "rock out" from time to time.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo42987 Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 Why run an MS8, that is a bit of over kill. If you are amping the 8's all you will need is an audiocontrol unit and then adjust the settings on the amp. The audiocontrol unit will save you some dough then as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildosvt Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 I like the 8" mounted in the rear deck idea. I envision a t-line where the port/sub enter the cabin at the 6x9 holes. With a 6.5" subwoofer. A 6.5 would probably be the best due to the size of these boxes. Dont laugh til you hear a t-line. I have built a single 8" for my SHO, Its more of a test box, and I was curious as all get out. But it came out ok and this thing hits the lows like you wouldnt believe.I will be giving it to my brother in law for his garage for helping me with the build. But it is large and in charge. I have designed a single 10" now that I plan on building soon to try out. It wil not win a SPL contest due to sounding different then a sealed/ported box. But SQ vs SPL? SQ is what we are after. "gues what size and how many" is so spot on in this video. You would be bamboozled too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8yArcObFZI&feature=related I will have to look at the dimensions of the rear deck again. This may be the solution I am after. (I do not know why I never thought of it prior to now)Shoot, If it doesnt work out I can just pull the amp off of my PC subwoofer and use it at my PC station. Using this sub. http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-832 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim1274 Posted October 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 Why run an MS8' date=' that is a bit of over kill. If you are amping the 8's all you will need is an audiocontrol unit and then adjust the settings on the amp. The audiocontrol unit will save you some dough then as well.[/quote'] The MS-8 is intended for EQ, crossover, and amplification of the other 7 speakers and not really for the sub (the sub will have its own amp). If I just wanted to add a sub and not upgrade the balance of system, agreed something like the audiocontrol is all that would be needed. The MS-8 allows fine tuning of the sound by multi-band EQ and crossover point tweaking on each of up to 8 channels. It is kind of like the room EQ autotuning on newer home theater receivers as an analogy. In theory, you can fine tune the system for flat frequency response at the driver position and adjust for proper time alignment of each speaker. I am hoping just and MS-8 and sub/amp addition will be a significant improvement in sound even used with the OEM speakers, which has been suggested before wholesale upgrade of the factory speakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim1274 Posted October 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 I like the 8" mounted in the rear deck idea. I envision a t-line where the port/sub enter the cabin at the 6x9 holes. With a 6.5" subwoofer. A 6.5 would probably be the best due to the size of these boxes. Dont laugh til you hear a t-line. I have built a single 8" for my SHO, Its more of a test box, and I was curious as all get out. But it came out ok and this thing hits the lows like you wouldnt believe.I will be giving it to my brother in law for his garage for helping me with the build. But it is large and in charge. I have designed a single 10" now that I plan on building soon to try out. It wil not win a SPL contest due to sounding different then a sealed/ported box. But SQ vs SPL? SQ is what we are after. "gues what size and how many" is so spot on in this video. You would be bamboozled too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8yArcObFZI&feature=related I will have to look at the dimensions of the rear deck again. This may be the solution I am after. (I do not know why I never thought of it prior to now)Shoot, If it doesnt work out I can just pull the amp off of my PC subwoofer and use it at my PC station. Using this sub. http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-832 I like your idea of a t-line enclosure a lot except for box in the trunk part. One of my design goals was retain unencumbered stock appearance "stealth" system, but if one does not mind a box in the trunk, this may very well be an excellent option. Another thing that I don't relish is chopping off the bump-out covers for the 6 by 9's in the trunk liner--those obviously have to go to hang a box--you would have a couple holes if ever wanting to go another route or put back to stock if selling the car. One could always buy a new trunk liner I suppose.... The dual 8's in the rear deck or JL Audio Stealthbox are the only solutions I have come up with that meet the stealth criteria. A t-line sure sounds interesting though.... SQ is KEY to any solution to my mind--that is why I'm adding an MS-8 (or similar--reviewing a couple other DSP options now before ordering) to the mix. So you are envisioning mating the port slot to one 6 by 9 opening and the 6.5 driver to the other 6 by 9 cutout? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim1274 Posted October 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 I like the 8" mounted in the rear deck idea. I envision a t-line where the port/sub enter the cabin at the 6x9 holes. With a 6.5" subwoofer. A 6.5 would probably be the best due to the size of these boxes. Dont laugh til you hear a t-line. I have built a single 8" for my SHO, Its more of a test box, and I was curious as all get out. But it came out ok and this thing hits the lows like you wouldnt believe.I will be giving it to my brother in law for his garage for helping me with the build. But it is large and in charge. I have designed a single 10" now that I plan on building soon to try out. It wil not win a SPL contest due to sounding different then a sealed/ported box. But SQ vs SPL? SQ is what we are after. "gues what size and how many" is so spot on in this video. You would be bamboozled too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8yArcObFZI&feature=related I will have to look at the dimensions of the rear deck again. This may be the solution I am after. (I do not know why I never thought of it prior to now)Shoot, If it doesnt work out I can just pull the amp off of my PC subwoofer and use it at my PC station. Using this sub. http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-832 FWIW, the Hybrid Audio Technology (HAT) 6.5 they used in the t-line demo video is from EXACTLY the same series (http://hybrid-audio.com/imagine/) as the 6.5 mid-bass I have in the upgrade queue for the front door speakers. While I did note that the thought was to first try running the OEM speakers with the MS-8, I still have my doubts on how far that will take me and was still mulling over just replacing the front door drivers when the door skin is off for sound dampening treatment. Hybrid Audio Technology is pretty highly regarded in custom car audio circles--several people who are really into this recommended their Imagine series as a quality and high value door speaker replacement. Not to say at all that your Tang Band is a lesser choice over the HAT's for a t-line--I did not compare specs on the two drivers--just mentioning since the HAT's are on my radar in general. Tang Band makes some really nice and good value drivers--actually used them in a recent build of some home theater speakers--was even thinking of trying to fit a 4" on hand in for my front dash center. (I have a spare Tang Band W4-1337SD 4" Titanium Driver left over from that home theater speaker build (this center 4CC and matching towers)) Parts Express was the supplier for all my drivers in that home theater build--lot of drivers there that might be even better choices in general than dedicated car speakers, I am thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim1274 Posted November 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 A brief update on where this is at: I am strongly leaning toward the dual 8" subs in the rear deck parcel shelf option and using the JBL MS-8 for my DSP "heart" of the system. I am going to upgrade the front door and center dash speakers, probably keeping the factory A pillar tweeters (for now--looks like removal of the A pillar covers is not a trivial thing). I was going to leave the rear door speakers as is, but since the skins will have to come off anyway for wiring into the MS-8, may just upgrade those too while I am at it. Since the MS-8 has full Logic 7 matrix processing capability, I might as well take advantage of that by adding a rear deck speaker too. I still need to flesh out the specific speaker and amp choices, but that was secondary to deciding on the sub and DSP solution. With addition of the rear shelf subs and center, the speaker position set-up will be exactly the same as the Sony option. I certainly HOPE this is a significant sound upgrade over the Sony when done, which I fully expect from having full DSP capabilities and better drivers and amplification. I'm going to a meet on Sunday of a Chicago area DIYMA member group, so will have an opportunity to go over my plan with experienced hard core mobile audio guys. Hopefully, I will be able to final spec all the gear after that and get the parts ordered. There are sooooo many speakers, amps, DSP's and such out there--hoping some experienced guidance will allow me to finalize this and get rolling on the install. It may make more sense to start a build thread since this one has meandered around--more user friendly for members who just want the install meat. I'm probably going to do the install myself with the help of a skilled DIY friend with extensive shop capabilities, so that will allow me to fully document the install with photos versus having the local custom shop do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildosvt Posted November 3, 2012 Report Share Posted November 3, 2012 BRAVO! I love it! "It may make more sense to start a build thread since this one has meandered around--more user friendly for members who just want the install meat. I'm probably going to do the install myself with the help of a skilled DIY friend with extensive shop capabilities, so that will allow me to fully document the install with photos versus having the local custom shop do it. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim1274 Posted November 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 Well, I just hit a major roadblock in using the intended MS-8 DSP for my OEM factory integration IF I want to retain my Synch voice capability...which I do... The way the MS-8 works is a single L+R input is used to generate all of the up to 8 output channels. The problem is, when the SYNC sends voice commands through the center speaker, the other speakers are greatly attenuated--if music is playing it basically cuts that out and channels the commands through the center speaker. Since the center is not a stereo L+R signal, I can't use that for my input either. And you can't leave any speakers directly on the OEM system--the MS-8 takes 8ms to process signals--the center, if left on the factory head, would be 8ms ahead of the other speakers. I am either going to just have to give up my SYNC voice or find another DSP that will map through the center input to center output. Not sure it any of them work that way. I'm trying to get a few more install details worked out--any help on tweeter and front door speakers questions below would be appreciated: Does anybody know the profile and dimensions of the 1" pillar tweeters? Anybody have a photo of the tweeter with the pillar covers off? Any tips on getting the A pillar covers off? I was hoping to have replacement tweeters in hand before ripping everything apart, but have no clue on how much room there is available and mounting scheme to make an educated guess on what tweeters will fit. Anybody know how much depth there is for the front door speakers? Has anyone replaced their midbass door speakers, and if so, what did you put in there? I am planning/hoping to put a pair of Hybrid Audio Technology Legatia L6 (http://store.12velectronics.com/legatia-l6-speaker-set/) at just a hair over 3" deep in the front doors and wanted to have a plan B ready if the depth is an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j1mmyr1chter Posted November 19, 2012 Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 I have seen a post in this forum I believe about a device that somehow will preserve Sync while allowing you to upgrade the system. I cannot for the life of me remember what it was called. Maybe somebody else here can recall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim1274 Posted November 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 I have seen a post in this forum I believe about a device that somehow will preserve Sync while allowing you to upgrade the system. I cannot for the life of me remember what it was called. Maybe somebody else here can recall? I read every audio system related thread before starting this adventure, but that does not mean I did not miss a reference to SYNC. That said, the game has changed a bit since I last updated: I spent some time yesterday revisiting how SYNC voice commands are handled by the system. My initial assessment was that most of the voice command output was directed to the center dash speaker--that does not seem to be true after careful listening. I elicited voice commands with the volume set at different points from zero to max--the voice commands cut in at a fixed medium level routed to all the speakers. Takeaway is that I CAN just pull one L+R input to feed my MS-8 DSP and completely separate the center dash speaker from the factory SYNC module and still retain function. The trick will be balancing the gain on the outboard added amps and the MS-8 so the SYNC cut in takeover is at some reasonable level. I now have the pair of 8" subs to run infinite baffle in the rear deck, so am making progress. Only real major decision left is how I integrate into the factory wiring. Basically, I am pulling a L + R head unit amp output for my input into the MS-8, separating all the speakers from the factory head, then feeding the MS-8 8 channels of output to amps then to the speakers. I either utilize the factory speaker wiring (grabbing off the head unit) or run all new speaker wiring. Pros and cons to both approach, so not an easy pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildosvt Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 How is your project going? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim1274 Posted January 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 How is your project going? Hmmmm....good question..... I have not done anything yet beyond scoring some mid bass drivers (Hybrid Audio Legatia L6) for the front doors, a center dash speaker (Alpair 6P full ranger--the fit was real tricky to find anything beyond standard 3.5 coaxes), and some sound dampening for the doors and trunk. That said, I do have a proposal from a Chicago area shop to do a full balls out replacement of the OEM system. The problem is that is north of $4K (in addition to the $500 of shelf parts on hand) and I am struggling to find the value part of the equation there. His proposal essentially retains just the head unit as a source input to a Alpine PXA-H800 DSP with Alpine RUX-C800 remote controller, replacing the drivers all around and powering with multiple amps, plus the JBL Stealthbox in the wheel well. I was also going to add a direct analog and digital coaxial input jack in the center arm rest box going straight to the Alpine 800 to bypass the head completely for another input option. The digital input is needed so I can play my 5.1 DTS source files for full discreet surround. (I have a Cowon D3 Plenue scored a few weeks ago on hand for my digital transport duties--the only current portable player I found that does a direct digital pass through) There you have it. Frankly, I am not sure what the end game is yet. I made a big mistake in not getting a SHO with the Sony (and NAV). Even contemplated trading the 2012 in on a loaded 2013. That could still happen yet. Anybody interested in a stripper 2012 with less than 3000 miles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim1274 Posted January 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 I even considered picking-up a Sony system at the junk yard and installing it and a Stealthbox, but my "premium system" wiring harnesses are different and don't think the Sony is compatible with my dash display configuration (all Sony systems have the big screen?). This has been a challenging (and frustrating) project for which I don't know the "best" solution. I suppose the most cost effective solution is just add a sub and call it a day, but that really is a half-way solution. I MAY just start with a sub and see how it sounds. Or I may see what kind of trade-in can be had on my '12. Actually, I am going to the dealer tomorrow for the 12B36 recall (boy am I glad my Livernois tune is still in the box--that 12B36 test and reprogram might have been an issue when they saw the tune show up?) so suppose it can't hurt to see what they would do on a trade? Really, other than the sound system and lack of NAV on my car, I love the SHO. Probably will love it even more when the tune is installed. (got the NAV option with the tune kit, but did not realize the display was so small and it needed that goofy puck antenna installed) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.