Paulford8 Posted November 3, 2012 Report Share Posted November 3, 2012 Basically looking for anybody that has more information / ideas regarding the transmission and PTU. I started researching and found a reference to JTEKT, a Japanese company. Sounds like they are making the PTU, rear diff, and RDU. Also sounds like the clutch pack that puts power to the rear is in the PTU. Does that all sound correct? So in looking for potential upgrades I emailed Level 10. Turns out they do have a trans upgrade option for this unit, but nothing for the PTU. The guy did say in an email he could be interested some R&D if there was enough interest. Before I continue researching / pestering people I want more info on this rear end unit. Specifically does anybody know if the unit is strong enough to handle more? If somebody comes out with a clutch/PTU that will put more power to the rear how much will it hold? Any info would potentially help us all. I am going to use what resources I have to try and get more info on the system and its capabilities. If I can find anything good or bad I will pass along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpd1151 Posted November 3, 2012 Report Share Posted November 3, 2012 Thanks for the hard, behind the scenes efforts on this..... I'm sure I won't be the only looking forward to w/e you are able to find out, and/or come up with..... :hail: Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crash712us Posted November 3, 2012 Report Share Posted November 3, 2012 Nice work Paul! I don't know very much about the ptu or the rear dif on our cars. I know the PTU is electronically controlled from looking at schematics on fordparts.com. But the units are sold complete, no internal shown or sold. And I have examined mine closely when change fluid in PTU, the control module on PTU is quite large and has a motor on thats larger then the starter motor and engine. Me a Darrell have discusses looking into modding the PTU and he said he recall seeing something in factory service manual saying that Torque was adjustable from 0-100% I had asked him to please research further "hint hint!" lol But I know he is a busy guy. I will see want I can pull up on my buddies garage computer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PopolZ Posted November 3, 2012 Report Share Posted November 3, 2012 I did some research as well and the information seems to be impossible to get. I also inquired to my dealership and they're pretty much clueless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crash712us Posted November 3, 2012 Report Share Posted November 3, 2012 Ok I found this from way back not sure how I missed or just don't recall. scroll down to thread #9 explains our awd system and the clutching is controlled in the rear diff http://www.shoforum.com/showthread.php?t=119781 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulford8 Posted November 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2012 Crash that explains a lot! But leaves a lot of questions... Still dont know what the rear diff can handle and if/how that PTU can be adjusted or altered. I am going to keep digging with the resources I have, maybe something will turn up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crash712us Posted November 3, 2012 Report Share Posted November 3, 2012 I found this not sure if it function is the same in our set up. But should be a few similarities. http://www.sae.org/mags/sve/11120/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShoBoat Posted November 4, 2012 Report Share Posted November 4, 2012 Crash that explains a lot! But leaves a lot of questions... Still dont know what the rear diff can handle and if/how that PTU can be adjusted or altered. I am going to keep digging with the resources I have' date=' maybe something will turn up.[/quote'] HMMM, this one has got me thinking, is the PTU the same as in the 2011 and newer explorer? We happen to have a 2011 Explorer and you are able to change the way the system works through the dive select control. On the dash stack you can display the intelligent AWD system. This display shows in real time where the power is being sent as you apply the gas. When you select sand for instance the system disables the Traction control and sends more power to the rear wheels (more power is sent to the rear than the front) I have tested this in the snow. Now all this is great, but I wonder if the PTU in the SHO could be made to change like the Explorer. That would be fun to say the least, even if say you could send 60% to the rear forced for a while . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulford8 Posted November 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2012 The Explorer is set like a FWD correct? I am sure the systems are different but could the PTU's interchange? I havent found anything on what the rear diff might handle. That said I have a feeling it could handle a lot. That plus I remember reading a post way back that said the AWD system including the rear diff could handle a crap load, but the trans was in question. Supposedly it is just a "clutch" inside our PTU determining the 150 ft lbs. Why couldnt somebody build a clutch to put 200 ft lbs? or more? It sounds simple but somebody needs to R&D it and find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShoBoat Posted November 4, 2012 Report Share Posted November 4, 2012 The Explorer is set like a FWD correct? I am sure the systems are different but could the PTU's interchange? I havent found anything on what the rear diff might handle. That said I have a feeling it could handle a lot. That plus I remember reading a post way back that said the AWD system including the rear diff could handle a crap load, but the trans was in question. Supposedly it is just a "clutch" inside our PTU determining the 150 ft lbs. Why couldnt somebody build a clutch to put 200 ft lbs? or more? It sounds simple but somebody needs to R&D it and find out. This site has a quote regarding the PTU, it doesn't say that it's the same PTU as the Explorer but it's made by JTEKT. http://www.fordfusionforum.com/index.php?/topic/5190-jtekt-awd-itcc-system-electronic-control-unit-supplier/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mothball Posted November 4, 2012 Report Share Posted November 4, 2012 I'm in the camp that believes that the rear has got to be able to handle more than 150ft-lbs of torque. That's Honda 4cyl torque levels. Considering the raw mass of our cars and the manner in which everything else is so overbilt on them I just don't think it makes any sense at all that the rear diff could be so frail. If the torque distribution can be computer controlled that would be fantastic. If it's manually limited by the clutch mechanism then that's going to take a little bit more work. It'll be worth it though to even get another 50-100ft-lbs back there considering how much torque they've made with those upgraded turbos! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacoflyer Posted November 5, 2012 Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 The Explorer is set like a FWD correct? I am sure the systems are different but could the PTU's interchange? I havent found anything on what the rear diff might handle. That said I have a feeling it could handle a lot. That plus I remember reading a post way back that said the AWD system including the rear diff could handle a crap load, but the trans was in question. Supposedly it is just a "clutch" inside our PTU determining the 150 ft lbs. Why couldnt somebody build a clutch to put 200 ft lbs? or more? It sounds simple but somebody needs to R&D it and find out. That link says JTEKT can have 295-1475 ft lbs in the system. And that they are Dyna Rear ends, I know Dyna wouldn't build a pansy rear end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShoBoat Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 Agreed, the rear end has to be able to handle more than 150 ft lbs. Just curious where did the 150 ft lbs come from? Is this the rating on the clutch assembly or an electronically limited amount? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpd1151 Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 That 150lb number came from a member who has chosen to no longer post here. How accurate it is remains to be verified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First-SHO Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 I am in communication with JTEKT the makers of our AWD system and I can assure you the clutch can handle 590 ft lb of torque. They did inform me Ford can program whatever amount they want and I should be receiving an email with more info soon. Will keep you posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpd1151 Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 Well that's certainly good to hear :thumb: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crash712us Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 Good info Mike! I had feeling on info I have read thus far that tuning more torque in should be possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First-SHO Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 The thing is there is a separate box for programming the system and I do not know if aftermarket can reprogram. My guy at JTEKT is doing some checking for me. Also, he is not sure how much the system can hold because Ford uses there own half shafts. I am working on this diligently and hope to have more info later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacoflyer Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 Well half-shafts can be made, like the ones on 1st Gen CTS-V's that had horrible stock ones. I think G-Force made some nice ones that fixed wheel hop issues with different diameter shafts. This is what 2nd Gen CTS-V has now, different diameter shafts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crash712us Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 Cool Mike, thanks for keeping us up to speed. If system can not be modified thru program of module, I wonder since the coupler is control by voltage signal if we can tap into wiring to coupler and increase the signal by way of a home made box with rheostat to control how much voltage is applied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulford8 Posted November 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 Mike you are awesome! It would be nice to confirm or deny the 150 ft lbs. Based on the fact that we are all spinning the fronts it is probably accurate or close to it. The Explorer can put more power to the rear so why cant we? If you find out there is a way to adjust this it will feel like Christmas, heck just the possibility feels like Christmas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShoBoat Posted November 7, 2012 Report Share Posted November 7, 2012 Way to go Mike! I can see it now.... we will all be at the track by the spring drifting like mad men! not to mention launching like a beast! I do have a friend that works at a local assembly plant putting together the MKT (they also assemble the Flex, MKX and Edge). I haven't spoken to him in some time. I will give him a call and see if he can shed any light on this. I believe that the MKT has the same AWD as the Flex (which is similar to the SHO)? I'll see if he knows how the programming of system is handled at the plant. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lesterg69 Posted November 7, 2012 Report Share Posted November 7, 2012 I can check when I get to work tomorrow with my trans tech and can also check the programmable parameters on my car with IDS to see if there any changes that can be made. If I can't find anything I can call my Ford field Engineer to see if he can find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lesterg69 Posted November 7, 2012 Report Share Posted November 7, 2012 This is directly from Ford Repair Manual. The rear diff is what controlls torque with a clutch that enguages it looks like it is designed to slip and apply more when slippage is detected it is PCM and controlled though the ATC (active torque coupling) and the 4x4 module. My tech said rear diff is small in design and probably not designed for large amounts of torque but not set in stone info. It may be possible to have a program to change the amount of torque percent delivered to ATC but he said it may cause a chatter when turning like a spool or possitrac diff. When I get some time I will monitor the percent of torque with normal driving from my car that is delivered just to see how it changes with acceleration. Hope this info is helpfull! DESCRIPTION AND OPERATION Rear Drive Axle and Differential The rear drive axle consists of the following components: • Dished circular flange • Full-time Active Torque Coupling (ATC) • Aluminum housing with steel housing cover • Matched ring and pinion • Conventional open differential • Rubber bushing isolated mounting points • Cover-mounted axle vent The rear axle drive pinion receives power from the engine through the transaxle, Power Transfer Unit (PTU), driveshaft and ATC, and is always engaged. The All-Wheel Drive (AWD) system on this vehicle is equipped with a bar-coded rear axle to reduce the tolerance of electrical current-to-torque delivered by the ATC. The 4X4 control module uses this bar code information to match the clutch characteristics of the ATC with the desired output torque. The pinion gear then rotates the differential ring gear, which is bolted to the differential case outer flange. Inside the differential case, 2 differential pinion gears are mounted on a differential pinion shaft, which is pinned to the differential case. These differential pinion gears are engaged with the differential side gears to which the halfshafts are splined. The halfshafts are held in the differential case by a driveshaft bearing retainer circlip that is located on the inboard CV joint stub shaft pilot bearing housing. When each halfshaft is installed, the driveshaft bearing retainer circlip engages a step in the differential side gear. As the differential case turns, it rotates the halfshafts and rear wheels. When it is necessary for one wheel and halfshaft to rotate faster than the other, the faster turning differential side gear causes the differential pinion gears to roll on the slower turning differential side gear. This allows differential action between the 2 halfshafts. The pinion seal and the differential halfshaft seals are the only serviced components of the rear drive axle. There are no stub shaft bearings in the differential housing and the differential housing cover uses a silicone sealant rather than a gasket. If other components of the rear drive axle or the ATC are worn or damaged, a new axle assembly must be installed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First-SHO Posted November 8, 2012 Report Share Posted November 8, 2012 Lesterg69, Great info and can you find out if it is a separate PCM unit that programs the clutch? Is the 150 lb ft torque number thrown around correct? JTEKT informed me the clutch can handle 590 lb ft of torque. Also, I have no problem if we can reprogram for the track and change back for normal driving. Thanks for your help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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