travSHO Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 I talked in length to a 20 year tech that works at a Ford dealership and he told me it is IMPOSSIBLE for a tech to see if you have had a tune. The only reason they check is if they hook up a scan tool or ids and the computer reads its not the car they are working on. (the older tunes did that). Which if you put the stock tune back in you will be fine. The only time they dig any deeper than that is if Ford corporate directs them to...which usually dosent happen and if it does MOST of the time its for diesel trucks. Just adding a little piece of mind for those that are worried. TUNE ON!!!:tongue: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMR76 Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 I do remember talking to a tech at my dealership about tunes when I purchased my car. I know he has at least 10 years (that's how long I knew him). He was telling me a story about a diesel truck that one of their customers blew up the engine somehow. Apparently it was obvious somehow it was from abuse and the dealership strongly suspected he had a tune in it before. The tech told me the dealership tried everything to check for a tune and there was no way they could determine or prove there had been a tune in the truck. Of course this was a couple years ago, so things might have changed. Anyway, since they really believed this guy did something they called Ford and they sent one of their guys out who was eventually able to prove he had tuned it before blowing it up. I agree with you, normally I think you would be safe just putting the stock back in and not saying anything. Unless you blow your engine up, they probably won't dig deep enough to find it. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what this guy told me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulford8 Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 I have have always been told they can find a flash point if they try hard enough but they cant tell what that flash was. Most guys on here have returned to stock for dealer visits and I cant remember anybody getting denied. No good for me to try cause I have some obvious stuff like the downpipes and methanol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19cobra99 Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 It's really simple. The factory PCM stores random bits of information that CANNOT be changed or deleted. These bits of data are what the engineer is looking for when a situation arises. The max RPM and SPEED is a couple. If your factory rpm is 6250 as is most Fords and the tec enters in mode 6 I think it's called and sees 6600 rpm what do you think this means? What about a non pp SHO going 158, the factory speed limits at just shy of 140. These deviations from the "norm" gets you voided. Not to mention the PCM has a flash counter. So if you tune your car then put it back to stock, just 1 time you car now has a flash count increased by 2. "Hummm,Ii wonder why this car has a flash count of 8" asks the Ford engineer. Now I'm not trying to say don't tune your car, but telling people that Ford cannot see if you've tuned is misleading. Just my .02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbulldog Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 I talked in length to a 20 year tech that works at a Ford dealership and he told me it is IMPOSSIBLE for a tech to see if you have had a tune. The only reason they check is if they hook up a scan tool or ids and the computer reads its not the car they are working on. (the older tunes did that). Which if you put the stock tune back in you will be fine. The only time they dig any deeper than that is if Ford corporate directs them to...which usually dosent happen and if it does MOST of the time its for diesel trucks. Just adding a little piece of mind for those that are worried. TUNE ON!!! Um, yes they can.... Ford becomes really interested when they suspect a tune throws a DTC (see below). Coming from a friend who is a Field Engineer involved with the Flex program, that the Ecoboost is the most scrutinized engine because of it's ability to be tuned. Direct from the Ford Oasis: Permanent Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC): The software stores a permanent DTC in non-volatile random access memory (NVRAM) whenever a DTC is set and the MIL has been illuminated. Permanent DTCs can only be cleared by the module strategy itself. After a permanent DTC is stored, 3 consecutive test passed monitoring cycles must complete before the permanent DTC can be erased. At that time, both the permanent DTC is erased and the MIL is extinguished. The PCM clears permanent DTCs after one monitoring cycle if a request to clear DTCs is sent by the scan tool, and the test subsequently runs and passes (test must continue to pass for the entire driving cycle for continuous monitors) and a Permanent DTC Driving Cycle has been completed. A Permanent DTC Driving Cycle requires a total of 10 minutes of engine run time, consisting of 5 minutes of vehicle operation above 40 km/h (25 mph) and 30 continuous seconds of vehicle operation at idle. After clearing DTCs, running the OBD Drive Cycle ensures that all monitors complete, the Permanent DTC Driving Cycle completes, inspection/maintenance (I/M) readiness codes are set to a ready status and any permanent DTCs are erased. A permanent DTC cannot be erased by clearing the KAM. The intended use of the permanent DTC is to prevent vehicles from passing an in-use inspection simply by disconnecting the battery or clearing the DTCs with a scan tool prior to the inspection. The presence of permanent DTCs at an inspection without the MIL illuminated is an indication that a correct repair was not verified by the on board monitoring system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travSHO Posted February 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 dont shoot the messenger.. I am just relaying what a 20 year tech told me. The way it works is when you drop your SHO off for service the tech will hook up ids and whatnot and the ids communicates with the car and pulls up the cars info. OLD (key word here) tunes would pull up a different vehicle then what the tech was working on and set off a red flag. (for obvious reasons) The newer tunes do not do this. Obviously if you reinstalll your factory tunes then your cars info will come up on the computer. My point was the TECHS THAT WORK ON YOUR CAR HAVE NO WAY OF TELLING IF A TUNE WAS INSTALLED. They dont have access to the equipment to do so. Now dont misunderstand what I just typed...I am fully aware that ford has the capability to find out if the ecu has been flashed, but his point was he has serviced alot of ecoboost vehicles, ALOT of which have had mods and tuners, and ford has yet to give him a hard time about warranty work. He said ford is usually harder on warranty work on diesel motors because everything is alot more expensive. I obviously am not trying to give anybody the wrong information...I am simply trying to let some people who are worried like I was that the dealership would now about a tune right as you pull into the lot before they even hook up equipment, that thats not the case. Again, everyone understands that you mod at your own risk...we are all big boys and girls here. Is there a chance that a tune will case catastrophic failure? Sure...anything is possible. But given what I have seen with Livernois and others im not to worried about that. If you go to the dealership with a blown engine are they going to look for a tune? Sure...Im sure they will but again...look at Livernois track record...chances of the tune CAUSING the failure is 0. (I think Livernois has a 0 failure rate.) All in all I hope you dont feel i am misleading anyone. I am not making the payments on your 50k car. Tuning and mods are a decision you make on your on. I am simply relaying the info I got from a 20 year tech that spends his days dealing with these cars and issues while we are behind a desk or whatever else you do. Having said all that...my tune should be arriving any day... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmr061 Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 I have have always been told they can find a flash point if they try hard enough but they cant tell what that flash was. Most guys on here have returned to stock for dealer visits and I cant remember anybody getting denied. No good for me to try cause I have some obvious stuff like the downpipes and methanol That's my concern with my 2013 righ now. Thinking of getting downpipes but I'd have to leave the tune in then ??? Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shobiz Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 @dbulldog So if I read this right, it seems that after flashing, if you drive the car normally (and everything is working correctly), three trips at over 10 minutes a trip, all codes should eventually clear/normalize and there would be no record that any codes were set? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbulldog Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 All in all I hope you dont feel i am misleading anyone. I am not making the payments on your 50k car. Tuning and mods are a decision you make on your on. I am simply relaying the info I got from a 20 year tech that spends his days dealing with these cars and issues while we are behind a desk or whatever else you do. Having said all that...my tune should be arriving any day... Whoa there.... Where was I criticizing or stating your misleading anyone?:noidea: Sorry if the "Um no..." was read that way and I'm all for tuning. This is directly from the Ford PTS/Oasis which I'm lucky to have access too. But ok then, here you go: A) I am good friends with the Ford Flex field engineer (Ecoboost program); Father was a Service Director for Ford for 40 years (recently retired), C) I've personally seen the procedure done with the Ford Oasis and IDS system with technicians that have more then 20 years experience. D) I'm a EE that does not sit behind a desk and knows a little something about the system. E) Didn't pay even close to $50K for the car (April 2011), BTW - same color, good choice.... Livernois makes a great tune and I'm considering this as well when my car comes out of winter storage, but just pointing out some facts to the same old debate we've talked about for three years. Take it for whats it's worth, and good luck with your tune. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travSHO Posted February 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 cool. no hard feelings...damn internet. on a lighter note. NICE CAR! I didnt even see your pic. Have you run it at the track? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbulldog Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 So if I read this right, it seems that after flashing, if you drive the car normally (and everything is working correctly), three trips at over 10 minutes a trip, all codes should eventually clear/normalize and there would be no record that any codes were set? My understanding is that if the DTC code is thrown, it is permanently stored in non-volitile memory until another factory update is performed when the PCM is cleared anyway. On the older EEC-V systems, you could get away with everything in tuning unless the technician physically pulled the PCM and saw the varnish removed on the PCB from the back diagnostics port on the module. This was a clear sign a performace chip was inserted....been there, done that. Most people can get away with tuning if the system doesn't throw the DTC. Again, it's seems to be all about the DTC being written to memory that throws the flags up. This of coarse, only applies to the powertrain. I'm really considering the tune from Livernois because of all the great reviews that I've read and zero problems, but there is also that side that says, I lost my covering in Ford if something did happen (Father retired), and I do have a 7yr./75K warranty that I paid for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travSHO Posted February 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Yeah, I had those same worries. What kind of made my decision is I met a guy at the track that had a 2010 stock with a tune with 75k miles and has not had a single problem. And he daily drives it and tracks it..as a matter of fact he is going to the track today in hopes to get into the 12's with stock non-pp car with stage 4 LMS tune. it also helped to talk to Rick over at LMS. he is more then willing to take the time to answer all your questions and concerns. Give him a call or e-mail, it might ease your mind. good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedCandySHO Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Yawn. Not this topic again..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19cobra99 Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Granted I am not an expert on this topic. I was only told this by the Ford engineer who went to the dealership my car was at. After having every tec in the shop around my car to show the tecs how to do what he was doing, kind of using my car as a test subject they voided my warranty because of a tune. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travSHO Posted February 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Yawn. Not this topic again..... you didnt have to click on the link... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travSHO Posted February 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Granted I am not an expert on this topic. I was only told this by the Ford engineer who went to the dealership my car was at. After having every tec in the shop around my car to show the tecs how to do what he was doing' date=' kind of using my car as a test subject they voided my warranty because of a tune.[/quote'] Did you leave the aftermarket tune in or did you flash the stock tune back in the ecu before drop off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjhpadi Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Yawn. Not this topic again..... :deadhorse: But in all fairness, we do have a lot of new members who may not have been around when we had this discussion before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19cobra99 Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 All stock when taken to the dealership! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19cobra99 Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 I actually drove the car for 500 miles with a P0308 code. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travSHO Posted February 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 All stock when taken to the dealership! i guess the difference is for some reason when you brought your car in there was an engineer there...odd. that is not the normal situation as far as I know. They usually send you ecu and pcm to the engineers. Unless its a BIG issue...then they will fly one out. I think you just got bad luck and made an example of... Sorry to hear that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travSHO Posted February 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 :deadhorse: But in all fairness' date=' we do have a lot of new members who may not have been around when we had this discussion before.[/quote'] thanks for the understanding. Like I said this is a 50k car and it is utilized as a daily that carries my family often. I wanna make sure that I am not doing something stupid by tuning. Which judging by the research I have done I don't think I am. Thanks again for your understanding and patience with the few of us that do the old "measure twice cut once" thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19cobra99 Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 @trav the tec wasn't there. The protocol in place for cars with misfire was to call tech line and get support. There is a flow chart that is followed and the tsb floating around online shows this. The car was at the dealership for a week before the warranty was voided. Plenty of time for the local warranty engineer person to get to the dealership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travSHO Posted February 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 So what was your cars problem anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19cobra99 Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Broken cylinder #8 piston. Had a tune from a very renown tuner and Steeda CAI with exhaust. Car was very quick. At 7000 miles the motor was hurt. I ended up building with good parts and finally traded it in for the SHO. Their are many theories as to why these motors break and I have mine. Maybe a new thread as this is an entirely off this threads topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomc612 Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 I read this on another forum.. First, if you leave the vehicle tuned, like I said above, they can tell by comparing parameters that the vehicle has been tuned. That being said, if the vehicle is flashed back to stock, they cannot tell anything aside from the KAM being erased and a P1000 code present...both of which are indicative to either a dead battery or being flash tuned. In more detail, when a vehicle is flashed, whether it be with a tune or back to stock, the ECM KAM (keep all memory) is erased and a P1000 code is stored(which means emissions controls have been reset and idle tables figures have not been stored), which basically boils down to a complete drive cycle has not been performed. P1000 is basically an invisible code that is stored in the ECM only and does not throw a check engine light. It can only be found with a scanner or factory software. Now all of those exact flags like I said, also show up when a battery has been disconnected for more than 30 minutes too. So you have 2 ways around it.... 1. Flash the vehicle back to stock and then complete a drive cycle before going to the dealer for service. A drive cycle consists of driving for 50 miles all the while, driving at different speeds including stop and go, highway, etc etc. Normal driving of course, from low speed to highways speeds. That then fills the idle tables and stores emissions information too. Therefore leaving no trace of the vehicle ECM ever being tampered with! 2. If the vehicle is not drivable, you then can flash the vehicle back to stock and then turn on the radio and other power accessories to run the battery down to dead status. That then, (if you recall what I said above as far as the battery being disconnected causing the same things), makes the vehicle KAM become erased, emissions tables reset and P1000 code be stored. The difference is, the battery being dead gives you a viable and 100% believable excuse as to why those things were stored in the computer. Hence, making it look like just a dead battery issue, therefore no one becomes the wiser. You just wait to call the tow truck and then use the excuse that the tow truck took so long, you were listening to music and such while you were waiting. All of the above is direct first hand experience that I have and not speculation. Hopefully it gives a better understanding of how the ECM operates, as far as flash tuning is concerned, and helps to put to rest, some of the fear of using a flash tuner. Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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