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Warranty denial due to catback exhaust


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Well my wife brought her SHO in today. We've found a tad bit of oil on the garage floor and suspect the oil return line to be leaking like some of the earlier SHO's have done. Immediately when they saw the cat back exhaust they denied any warranty work and wouldn't even touch the car. The exhaust is a custom exhaust with the 3rd cat removed and replaced with an xpipe like most of the exhausts for this car. They printed out the TSB regarding modifications from Ford and gave it to her. It specifically states "removal of the cat or mufflers can result in lower back pressure resulting in increased turbo speeds resulting in damage".

 

Being that we have an extended warranty this kinda sucks. They went on to say it basically voided her entire powertrain warranty so...she's a bit upset.

 

Just a heads up to any of you looking to get an exhaust.

 

I'm going to bring it into another dealership that aren't so anal (I hope) and I hope I can get the leak fixxed as it was there before doing the exhaust even...ugh what a PITA.

 

I thought of maybe getting a 3rd cat and welding it back in BUT they mention the mufflers too so those would have to go back on as well. I highly doubt the shop I went to still has my cat and mufflers as they probably scrapped them. But at that point I might as well just go back to stock.

 

But I mean cmon...I can't see a flipping exhaust causing catastrophic engine failure!! But then again maybe the Ecoboost engine is that touchy? Haven't had any problems for what I can tell but...ugh just sucks though.

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Dang, that does indeed suck! Hopefully they did not flag you in the system, which could make going to another dealership tough, even if you were to go back to stock...

 

My wild guess opinion is that stupid TSB is garbage legally... the dealership is supposed to have to "prove" that your aftermarket parts caused the issue... Legally i don't think they can just look at your exhaust and then wave the TSB at you... I think you have the legal right to make them prove that your exhaust caused the problem...

 

Some resources:

 

http://www.bipac.net/page.asp?content=warranty_denied&g=semaga

 

http://www.semasan.com/semaga/images/warranty_ftc.pdf

 

The other thing is you can cancel your extended warranty and get a refund for remaining time you had left, if you were to so chose...

 

Keep us posted!!

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Well my wife brought her SHO in today. We've found a tad bit of oil on the garage floor and suspect the oil return line to be leaking like some of the earlier SHO's have done. Immediately when they saw the cat back exhaust they denied any warranty work and wouldn't even touch the car. The exhaust is a custom exhaust with the 3rd cat removed and replaced with an xpipe like most of the exhausts for this car. They printed out the TSB regarding modifications from Ford and gave it to her. It specifically states "removal of the cat or mufflers can result in lower back pressure resulting in increased turbo speeds resulting in damage".

 

Being that we have an extended warranty this kinda sucks. They went on to say it basically voided her entire powertrain warranty so...she's a bit upset.

 

Just a heads up to any of you looking to get an exhaust.

 

I'm going to bring it into another dealership that aren't so anal (I hope) and I hope I can get the leak fixxed as it was there before doing the exhaust even...ugh what a PITA.

 

I thought of maybe getting a 3rd cat and welding it back in BUT they mention the mufflers too so those would have to go back on as well. I highly doubt the shop I went to still has my cat and mufflers as they probably scrapped them. But at that point I might as well just go back to stock.

 

But I mean cmon...I can't see a flipping exhaust causing catastrophic engine failure!! But then again maybe the Ecoboost engine is that touchy? Haven't had any problems for what I can tell but...ugh just sucks though.

 

 

 

This, is why I am leaning towards a full bolt in and out system like the Corsa. More expensive, but if I have problems down the road I will just exchange out back to original OEM exhaust and then go in for warranty stuff.

 

I too have the extended warranty and it makes me think twice before I do any more mods that are not quickly reversible for any repairs. If they think they can get out of any factory warranty repairs they will. It's as if the dealers would rather take your money than the factory money. They get paid either way. They must get audited from time to time.

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I hate to say it, but I am pretty sure the car is flagged now. Definitely either fight it NOW, or cancel the extended warranty and see if you can get some $$ back. Another point, while maybe for argument's sake they can "cancel" the powertrain warranty, if you have an electrical problem (ie broken sunshade), how can they possibly tie an exhaust to that?

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First, I'm not sure that a catback system will reduce back pressure enough to make a difference. It sounds to me more like a dealership that doesn't want to deal with the hassle of waiting for payment for warranty work but instead wants to make sure they get paid up front. You should at least name the dealership so others know not to buy or do repair work there. Good luck hope everything works out. Also, I'm surprised the oil would be on the garage floor if it was an engine leak problem, I would think most of the oil would be caught by the cover on the bottom of the engine, unless the leak is fairly bad. Did the dealership at least look at the car to see what was causing the leak? Anyway, good luck but it sure sounds like something is fishy in Denmark, if they won't even look at the car...could it be they don't have any quality mechanics?

Lastly I canceled an extended warranty many years ago, and it was a real rip-off. I ended up getting almost nothing back from the cost of the warranty, I would check to see how much you will get back if you cancel. I think you would do better to fight the rejection of the warranty claim. I think it's the Moss-Magensen Act that says they must prove the modification caused the problem they are rejecting.

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Fight it, the dealership has to prove that was the reason for the failure.

 

I am guessing lower back pressure, should not hurt the turbos. Since the car still controls the waste gate, and the turbos only spool up faster(basically they get to speed faster). So the factory PSI setting are never exceeded since the PCM will open waste gate. (I am not mechanic, but I have a little experience with turbo vehicles)

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Repost from another site (modularman from Modularford site):

 

•AFTERMARKET POWERTRAIN CONTROL MODULE CALIBRATION, NON-FACTORY MODIFICATION OR AFTERMARKET COMPONENTS

 

Publication Date: January 28, 2010

FORD:

2010 Taurus, FlexLINCOLN:

2010 MKS, MKT

 

ISSUE:

 

Some 2010 Taurus, Flex, MKS and MKT vehicles equipped with an EcoBoost engine may have unauthorized aftermarket modifications to the powertrain hardware and/or calibration which may result in exceeding component design limits. Such modifications could cause damage to the powertrain and/or void the factory powertrain warranty.

ACTION:

 

Review Service Procedure

SERVICE PROCEDURE

 

 

 

Unauthorized calibration modifications may or may not be detectable using standard tools (Integrated Diagnostic System (IDS), Portable Diagnostic Software (PDS), NGS+ VCM). Changes can be made to the calibration and flashed to the PCM through the OBD port. Physical modifications to the hardware may or may not be present. If aftermarket power/torque-increasing modifications are suspected, care should be taken to record and store the following items: Permanent Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTCs), Pending DTCs, Freeze Frame Data, Mode 6 and Mode 9 data. The data should be printed and attached to the repair order for later reference.

The DTCs, freeze frame data, Mode 6 and 9 data can be obtained by using the IDS, PDS or NGS+VCM under tool box selection. The Powertrain tab will provide the OBD Test Modes tab and Mode 6 and 9 data selection after the vehicle has been identified.

Attempting to increase the engine output via recalibrating the PCM may result in poor drivability, DTCs, or component failures. A partial list of calibration induced component failures is given below:

•Piston damage.

•Spark over-advanced (knock-induced damage).

•Insufficient enrichment.

Excessive Cylinder Pressure:

 

 

•Turbocharger damage.

Over-Speed:

 

 

•Catalyst damage.

Over-Temperature/Melting:

 

 

•Transmission, PTU, Torque converter damage.

Hardware Modifications:

 

 

 

The following list contains items that are frequently modified in an effort to increase the engines torque/power output. Modifying these items may, or may not improve the performance, but can lead to drivability issues, DTCs and possibly component failures:

•Air induction system (air box, low pressure and high pressure air ducts).

 

The system may be particularly susceptible to flexible air ducts between the air filter and the compressors. Restrictions on either side of the compressor can result in over-speeding the turbo (Figures 5-6).

•Wastegate actuator pre-tension.

 

The full load output of some turbocharged engines will increase if the wastegate spring pre-tension is increased. This is not the case with the EcoBoost engine. Adjusting the wastegate pre-tension out of the specified range can result in DTCs. A tamper evident paint dot has been applied to the wastegate actuator adjustment mechanism to make modifications more apparent.

•Throttle inlet and intake manifold pressure sensors.

 

These sensors and the associated wiring should be inspected to verify they have not been modified.

•Additional fuel injection devices.

 

The high pressure fuel system used for the EcoBoost engine will not support additional fuel flow beyond what the factory calibration requests. Inspect the engine for an additional aftermarket injector(s) located somewhere in the induction system to provided increased fuel flow.

•PCV system modifications.

 

If the PCV system is modified (vented to atmosphere being the most common modification) it can result in a condition where oil gets past the turbine seal even on an undamaged, fully functional turbocharger. Oil in the exhaust system may not be sufficient evidence to identify a failed turbo if the PCV system has been compromised.

•Compressor bypass modifications (a.k.a. blow-off valve, or anti-surge valve).

 

It is common to modify these components so they make more noise. If the aftermarket devices fail to seal properly when closed, elevated turbo speeds and compressor outlet temperatures will occur.

•Exhaust air path/system.

 

Removal of catalysts or mufflers/resonators to reduce exhaust backpressure may result in over-speeding the turbo(s).

•Thermostat modifications.

 

Blocking open the thermostat may reduce the coolant flow to the turbo chargers. Wastegate Tamper Evident Paint Dot

 

It may cause... fight it, what do you have to loose

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^ I agree, but back to the question, did they tell you what was causing the oil leak or even where it is coming from? I believe it is hard to deny a claim, if they did not even diagnosis the problem. That's what seems so strange. Saying no to the warranty without even knowing what is causing the problem.

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I wasn't there but my wife was. She simply said they wouldn't touch it for the warranty work and nope they didn't even look at it. I'm going to bring it to another dealership tomorrow where I'm friends with the GM so hope that helps out.

 

If it doesn't work out then I'm going to have to hack off the custom exhaust and hopefully trade someone their stock exhaust + a little cash. Sounds reasonable right?

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I hate to say it' date=' but I am pretty sure the car is flagged now. Definitely either fight it NOW, or cancel the extended warranty and see if you can get some $$ back. Another point, while maybe for argument's sake they can "cancel" the powertrain warranty, if you have an electrical problem (ie broken sunshade), how can they possibly tie an exhaust to that?[/quote']

 

Well I hope not...but yeah I'll bring it to the other dealership and sure they'll tell me if it is or not. If it is well then there's no point in putting it back to stock I don't think? I mean in Ford's eyes then ANYthing down the road that comes up will be put back on the exhaust even if it isn't there anymore?? If that's the case then we'll just get the money back on teh extended, which we haven't gotten into yet. At 35k miles right now.

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Leaking tube is SSM21759 although may guys have had their entire turbo replaced. Mine is an early one also, just got my X pipe to replace that 3rd cat and your making me hesitate. Had my dealer check mine for leaks and nothing found, was almost hoping they would find mine leaking so this doesnt crop up later.

 

Let us know what happens!

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We all like to think that the Magnuson-Moss will help us, but getting the dealer to work on the car to prove that your mod did not cause the problem is another thing. Chances are you will have to get it repaired on your own, hire an attorney in order to enforce the Magnuson-Moss act, and then try to get reimbursed for the repair. It will be time consuming and costly. We all know that they have to prove that your mod caused the problem, but all they will do is point to a TSB that says removing/adding blah blah blah could cause the problem, and we THINK it did so, no repair under warranty.

 

Here is the link for SEMA, http://www.bipac.net/page.asp?content=warranty_denied&g=semaga, this page gives you some options.

 

But it also states that if there is a known problem regarding the part that failed, they can still fix it.

 

(This whole comment is just a brief synopsis. There is much more that can be added to it that can be read on other sites.)

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Was searching around and found this article. Guy claims to be an engineer at Garrett (which is what we have) and explains back pressure. He basically says you want it choked down before the turbo to get velocity but after the turbo you dont need pressure, and want as little back pressure as possible. I doubt Ford would care about this guys theory, but still interesting.

 

http://www.tercelreference.com/tercel_info/turbo_exhaust_theory/turbo_exhaust_theory.html

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IMO the whole thing is a bit silly. I mean cmon...a simple cat back exhaust voids your entire power train warranty? Thats rediculous! In reality even if it creates less back pressure allowing the turbos to spool up faster...it isn't over boosting them or upping the RPM's is it? I mean in the end the PCM has full control over the WGA to keep things where it wants it and that's that. Right?? I mean have you EVER heard of a cat back exhaust being the cause of a blown turbo or engine??

 

With Dodge they NEVER ever game me any problems about having a cat back exhaust on my SRT-4. Even with my Mopar stage 3 they didn't give me any hassles although I never had any major warranty claims. Makes me want to avoid Ford in the future because according to them...if I buy a Stang or something and put on a simple exhaust or performance air filter I'm screwed as far as warranty goes.

 

It's just frustrating though....my SHO is far from being heavily modified at all and it's obvious they're just trying to save money and screwing me over. Not very good customer service and it'll definitely discourage me from ever buying a Ford again.

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IMO the whole thing is a bit silly. I mean cmon...a simple cat back exhaust voids your entire power train warranty? Thats rediculous! In reality even if it creates less back pressure allowing the turbos to spool up faster...it isn't over boosting them or upping the RPM's is it? I mean in the end the PCM has full control over the WGA to keep things where it wants it and that's that. Right?? I mean have you EVER heard of a cat back exhaust being the cause of a blown turbo or engine??

 

With Dodge they NEVER ever game me any problems about having a cat back exhaust on my SRT-4. Even with my Mopar stage 3 they didn't give me any hassles although I never had any major warranty claims. Makes me want to avoid Ford in the future because according to them...if I buy a Stang or something and put on a simple exhaust or performance air filter I'm screwed as far as warranty goes.

 

It's just frustrating though....my SHO is far from being heavily modified at all and it's obvious they're just trying to save money and screwing me over. Not very good customer service and it'll definitely discourage me from ever buying a Ford again.

 

 

You used MOPAR parts on the SRT4. Its the same as Ford Racing. In some cases there are warnings of no warranty coverage when using certain parts from either parts counter. Other parts/kits carry on with the original waranty. We don't have to accept that in this case the warranty was denied. But I know that removing a cat will do just that.

I know of a '03 Z06 and a '04 Cobra that lost 100% of their warranty due to bolt ons. But these were far more modded then a custom exhaust. (I told them to put it back to stock!)

 

Good Luck getting it resolved!

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It's just frustrating though....my SHO is far from being heavily modified at all and it's obvious they're just trying to save money and screwing me over. Not very good customer service and it'll definitely discourage me from ever buying a Ford again.

 

I agree it is totally different if the mods were done with Ford approved parts, but just because one dealer denies the warranty, it's a little harsh to say that you would never buy another Ford...I mean, I've never had an issue with warranty at either my selling dealer, who did the brake TSB and the first 2 oil changes or the servicing dealer who did the tail light TSB, and just recently did my seat repair. They have also done both of the regular, routine service as required in the owner's manual. I really believe you will find it is more of a dealer issue then a Ford issue. Again, if your selling dealer is being a jerk, then I can understand you never going to them for service or buying a car from them. However, if another dealer gives you great service, then maybe that should also be considered in your next buying decision, if you are considering a Ford. I know I have found, that buying the cheapest isn't always the best in the long run.

Take for example at our scuba center, we had a customer that needed 2 regulators (the part you breath through) serviced, one he purchased from us, the other he purchased mail order but got it a a much cheaper price. However, since I am not certified to service the mail order one, we had to send it out to be serviced. Cost to do the normal service on the regulator purchased from us-$55.00. Cost for regulator that needed to be serviced elsewhere-$149.95! And the place that did the service for the mail order regulator thought we should charge $200.00 for that service. So what looked like a good deal at purchase will end up being much more expensive at the end of 5 years. And remember we are talking about life support equipment, so doing the yearly service is rather important. Anyway, back to my point, I really suspect that you will find that another dealer will be much more helpful then the one who won't even look at the car, which I find is totally unacceptable, and really, really seems like a bad thing for customer relations. Hope you do get the problem resolved without any more hassle!

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What you should have done is you, not your wife needed to take a copy of the TSB showing the turbo line oil leaks. If the dealer contacted Ford Warranty on this, they would have requested pix of everything that appeared to be a modification from stock. Dealer would have taken several pictures of the entire length of your custom exhaust, including the mufflers, tips, missing mid-muffler and 3rd cat, and the x-pipe replacement. If you have custom wheels, new rotors/brake pads, custom CAI, missing engine cover, custom grille, lowering springs, a DashHawk, or anything else that most people wouldn't have.. the dealer will be requested to send pix to Ford Warranty. Been there.... Had it Done.

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It's just frustrating though....my SHO is far from being heavily modified at all and it's obvious they're just trying to save money and screwing me over. Not very good customer service and it'll definitely discourage me from ever buying a Ford again.

 

Ford definitely isn't the only ones doing this and a lot does depend on the dealership. A guy at my work was denied a warranty claim on his Chevy truck that had a transmission go out and it was less than 6 months old. He has a lawn business on the side and pulls a small trailer with the truck and they claimed his trailer was too heavy. Even though he proved it was less than the max towing capacity and towed it to arbitration to further show it he still lost his case. I learned from their it's not always as easy as making them prove their case. They will, and did in his case, send lawyers also.

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Ford definitely isn't the only ones doing this and a lot does depend on the dealership. A guy at my work was denied a warranty claim on his Chevy truck that had a transmission go out and it was less than 6 months old. He has a lawn business on the side and pulls a small trailer with the truck and they claimed his trailer was too heavy. Even though he proved it was less than the max towing capacity and towed it to arbitration to further show it he still lost his case. I learned from their it's not always as easy as making them prove their case. They will' date=' and did in his case, send lawyers also.[/quote']

 

That is ridicules, I would have been pissed.

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and then on the flip side, I had a throttle body and throttle position sensor replace under warranty on my Mustang even though my nitrous kit was easily visible, still had the numbers on the window from the track and a helmet in the back seat! LOL! There was a TSB for my problem and I took in a printed out copy of it... Dealership replaced it no questions asked... ok, the service adviser did ask me why I had a helmet in the car... and then gave me a smirk... LOL!

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