brucelinc Posted March 26, 2013 Report Share Posted March 26, 2013 Here is a direct copy & paste from Ford's media site: •The new 3.5-liter EcoBoost V-6 operates at fuel pressures about 35 times higher than the typical port-fuel injected (PFI) gasoline engine. Precisely controlled, EcoBoost fuel pressure ranges from 200 to 2,150 pounds per square inch (PSI), compared with about 60 for the typical PFI engine •Turbocharging boosts the pressure of intake air feeding the EcoBoost engine to deliver V-8 style performance from a V-6. EcoBoost operates with a boost level of 8-12 PSI They say 8-12 but that is a BIG variation. I have always assumed that under WOT, it would almost immediately reach 8 PSI and build with RPM to a max of 12 PSI. That is essentially the way my old T'Bird operated. Maybe my assumption is totally flawed. I could see fuel quality and octane playing a role in max boost pressure. Temperature may play a role, too. Part of me wishes I had a boost gauge....and another part of me is glad I don't. It would probably drive me crazier than I already am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larrylu Posted March 26, 2013 Report Share Posted March 26, 2013 You may be onto something. Maybe for a DD it might be better to not monitor things so closely. Still I love the way the gauge looks. If I can just convince myself to be OK with 12psi.....ha ha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larrylu Posted March 27, 2013 Report Share Posted March 27, 2013 Well I did a little on the road testing today. Part of me wishes I did not. My suspicions are confirmed. I timed a 0 to 60 using the torque app (really cool set up BTW) and running my 4+, and with a quarter tank of gas, braking while bringing RPM to 1800, ........5.45 seconds. I then checked the max boost during that run, and it was around 11 lbs. Pretty dejected I made my way back from the abandoned airstrip, and after gassing up I gave it a brief blast from a rolling start and presto boost for that little muscle flex was up to 12 lbs. Not 13 lbs. but at least better than 11lbs. The variation is frustrating. I feel like I'm chasing ghosts here. Any suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
83racecrew Posted March 27, 2013 Report Share Posted March 27, 2013 IMO, this is all down to electronics and how many times things are sampling through the OBDII connector. If you really want to know, find a mechanical boot gauge and attach it to a vacuum line. That will be the only way to tell 100% for sure where your car is topping out, boost wise. The granularity on a mechanical gauge is greater than the electronics. You are simply not catching the peaks. I have no evidence I can show you to prove this, however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcoBoostSHO Posted March 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2013 That's a bummer. It would be nice to know if you are knocking at all. Under WOT with the 4+ what kind of timing and air/fuel ratios are you seeing? (Do you know how to use Torque to actually log it to a file and then get it off your device?) I would not be surprised if they control boost levels based on the timing it is running and if it is seeing knock. If it sees knock it will obviously pull timing and that may affect your boost (it's just a theory). I don't know if flashing clears the knock tables or if just unplugging the battery for long enough would work but you could try that and see if it gets better for a little. Ideally you should be measuring for knock (You could try either the SCT device if that is what you are using as it measures knock or you could try the Torque PID that I think is knock and see if that picks up anything.). If you see knock at WOT then you could pull a degree of timing when you load the tune with the SCT. That sounds counter intuitive but if you can get rid of 2-3 degrees of knock by pulling one degree of timing you are actually better off. If it is knocking you need to figure out why. If not it could be because of the turbos or... Sorry - that's a lot of stuff. Hopefully it made some sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brucelinc Posted March 27, 2013 Report Share Posted March 27, 2013 If the knock sensor has to pull timing (and boost?) would we hear audible pinging at any point - or would we just have reduced performance? Has anyone ever heard audible spark knock with the ecoboost engine? Larry, have you tried different brands of fuel? Can we be certain that a pump marked 93 octane is really 93? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larrylu Posted March 27, 2013 Report Share Posted March 27, 2013 Thanks for all the fresh ideas guys. A long time ago I checked for grounding of the spark nock sensor wire. It looked perfect but just in case I snaked a zip tie around it to keep it from laying against the engine. On the fuel ...who knows I guess. I have been running Sunoco 93 unless I'm traveling. I could switch and see if there is any change. Maybe it will get better with the summer formulation. That would be too easy. One of my gauges I picked to display is the air fuel ratio (measured). Not sure I could spot something there but the ratios seem to be moving in ways that make sense. Higher numbers at no load mean leaner and lower numbers at load mean richer. The car really seems to be running well except for under performing when compared to a benchmark. Wish I was closer to LMS. I'd want to take it for a evaluation. I wonder if I could take it to a local speed shop for a dyno pull maybe they would spot something....scary thought. Don't know if I trust anyone but LMS. Another one of the gauges I've been displaying is timing. There again during normal operation I haven't seen anything to make me suspicious but I have been looking elsewhere at WOT. I haven't been logging. That's a new concept to me but...got to keep thinking and trying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcoBoostSHO Posted March 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2013 IMO, this is all down to electronics and how many times things are sampling through the OBDII connector. If you really want to know, find a mechanical boot gauge and attach it to a vacuum line. That will be the only way to tell 100% for sure where your car is topping out, boost wise. The granularity on a mechanical gauge is greater than the electronics. You are simply not catching the peaks. I have no evidence I can show you to prove this, however. I definitely agree this may be a possibility. I've stated previously (someplace in the Torque thread I believe) the same thing. You could easily miss a peak value if it spikes quickly in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcoBoostSHO Posted March 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2013 In my humble opinion if you can hear audible knock in a boosted application you are in big trouble...and it will probably be blowing up on you soon (especially since the stupid fuel injector pump is so loud on these cars) On the GTP I drove there weren't any intercoolers and people would just put smaller pulleys on without supporting mods. They wouldn't hear knock and every once in a while someone would blow it up and wonder why.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larrylu Posted March 27, 2013 Report Share Posted March 27, 2013 I definitely agree this may be a possibility. I've stated previously (someplace in the Torque thread I believe) the same thing. You could easily miss a peak value if it spikes quickly in my opinion. Missing a peak value could slightly misrepresent the boost but would not change the meaning of the pretty dismal 0 to 60 measurement right? That pretty much establishes not up to par performance results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brucelinc Posted March 27, 2013 Report Share Posted March 27, 2013 Larry, that is why I was thinking that maybe your knock sensor is pulling timing or boost. I would love to think it is as simple as winter formulated fuel or fuel that isn't as high an octane as advertised. Obviously, I am only speculating..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larrylu Posted March 27, 2013 Report Share Posted March 27, 2013 Larry' date=' that is why I was thinking that maybe your knock sensor is pulling timing or boost. I would love to think it is as simple as winter formulated fuel or fuel that isn't as high an octane as advertised. Obviously, I am only speculating.....[/quote'] So a good thing to help figure this out soul be to log timing? If it was being held back for whatever reason the timing numbers would show the trail. If Im not properly understanding just straighten me out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brucelinc Posted March 27, 2013 Report Share Posted March 27, 2013 Again, I do not claim any special knowledge in this area. However, we all know that timing plays a big role in performance. You can't have it advanced so far that you have detonation but if it is retarded more than necessary to prevent detonation, your performance will suffer. I would definitely log it but I am not sure what you would compare it with or what would be optimal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcoBoostSHO Posted March 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2013 Missing a peak value could slightly misrepresent the boost but would not change the meaning of the pretty dismal 0 to 60 measurement right? That pretty much establishes not up to par performance results. Well if it gets the 60 MPH measurement from OBD and it is late in getting that value then it would absolutely affect the measurement...Now that said I know what OBD adapter you have and with the tablet I would think you'd get pretty good sampling rates and it shouldn't be an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larrylu Posted March 27, 2013 Report Share Posted March 27, 2013 I'm seeing very fast response to all obvious readings like RPM so I would guess so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crash712us Posted March 27, 2013 Report Share Posted March 27, 2013 Larry the there one simple way to see if it has a leak, is have a smoke test performed. Not sure what a garage would charge to do, but the test is very simple they hook up a smoke machine up the boot just behind the air cleaner box they inject smoke into the intake system and they look to see if smoke is leaking out any where. its a ingenious tool for tracking down leaks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larrylu Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 Ok so that would check for a leak on the pressure side. Just curious ....I have the original plugs at about 44K. No stumbles or missing. Runs smooth and pulls good and if I didn't how strong it was supposed to be I would have no clue. Using the 0 to 60 benchmark it's running a little slower than what stock should be, and that's running LMS 4+. I think I will have to go back to stock and bench mark the stock performance. I know from the butt dyno it will be slower than with my tune. Then I can start looking for some help getting the problem pinpointed. After it is solved then I can load the tune again. Right now I think the tune just masks the substandard performance and is making it harder to play detective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowsho Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 Man i was pissed seeing a 4.8 0-60. I feel like you and I have the same issues hahaha. I see usually 4.9 0-60 which im not to sure how much slower that is compared to everyone else on stage 4+ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larrylu Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 I can't remember either. We will have to ask Steve to refresh our poor memories but.....I'm thinking I remember a 0 to 60 of 5.1 as pretty good but not unusual for stock, and in the mid 4's for 4+. TSS has used 0 to 60 runs pretty often, maybe he can firm up our recollections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowsho Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 Stock i was seeing like avg 5.3-5.4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larrylu Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 Wow I'm real close to what your stock was. So whatever my problem is its eating up all of the extra performance my tune provides. Now that's a real motivator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larrylu Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 Stock i was seeing like avg 5.3-5.4 I just searched and found some Steve stats. Stock he ran a 5.0 sec 0 to 60 and with 4+ he was down to 4.1. He did credit a little bit of those results to lowering and he did have the CAI for what ever that's worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brucelinc Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 I subscribe to all the car magazines. The fastest 0-60 I have seen was 5 flat. That was Road & Track for an MKS. Motor Trend and Car & Driver have 0-60 of 5.2 - 5.4. I am pretty sure all the enthusiast mags brake-torque just like we would to get the best time. Totally unscientific and crude compared to what you guys are doing but just using a stopwatch (operated by my wife) and me looking at the speedometer, I was around 5.2-5.3 stock and 4.5-4.6 with the 4+ tune. Please don't make fun of my process...it is the best method I have at the moment! Stock, even with brake-torquing, I would only get a little chirp off the line. With 4+, on the same asphalt surface, I get much more wheelspin off the line and chirp on the 1-2 shift. I am a little suspicious of fuel quality. About 3 weeks ago, I filled up with 93 octane at a BP in a small town - not my usual station. It obviously was not nearly as high a volume station as my usual place. I swear the car did not run quite as strong. On the next fill, I was back at my usual station and it feels like a rocket again. My imagination? Maybe....but I have a pretty sensitive butt-o-meter. :noidea: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larrylu Posted March 30, 2013 Report Share Posted March 30, 2013 Bruce thanks for chipping in with your numbers. You are reinforcing in my mind that my car is for sure way underperforming. It seems like you have a pretty accurate system set up but I'm sure you would get a kick out of seeing how easy the torque app makes checking your 0 to 60 times. You don't even have to push a button. It zeros itself out as soon as you come to a stop and it starts recording as soon as you launch. It stops by itself as soon as you get to 60 and it will keep that number until you stop again. It also maintains and displays your best time of a series without any work on your part at all. Your wife and the stopwatch could retire though she probably enjoys feeling needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve142857 Posted March 30, 2013 Report Share Posted March 30, 2013 Your wife is slowing you down by a tenth or two ( depending on her weight)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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